Label vs Identity - 21

[00:00:11] - [Speaker 0]
I'm Dave Whittingham.

[00:00:12] - [Speaker 1]
And I'm Kate Morris.

[00:00:14] - [Speaker 0]
Today, we'll think about some of the emotions and concerns that can come with discovering neurodivergence in ourselves or someone we love. We'll explore what this new understanding might mean and what it might make possible. Good day, everyone. Welcome back to Neurodivergence Family and Faith at the start of season three. We're kicking off our third season.

[00:00:36] - [Speaker 0]
It's so exciting, Kate.

[00:00:38] - [Speaker 1]
Yay. Yes. It's it's been nice to have a little break, but it is nice to get back into it again.

[00:00:44] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. And in our break, we did our webinar, which was really well attended and I think was really helpful for people, and I enjoyed doing it, and we might even do it again sometime, so keep an ear out for that.

[00:00:57] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Absolutely. The webinar was was really good. Dave, I just wanna share some jokes with you as we're getting started. Is that okay?

[00:01:06] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, I am always happy to start with jokes.

[00:01:08] - [Speaker 1]
Well, I was at dinner last night, and one of my daughters was reading out some jokes from a book called something like a thousand and one Aussie jokes or something like that. I mean, it's one of those books where you look at and go, I think I'm gonna have to hear every one of those jokes being read. But there's one I wanna talk about, but first, let me just... I just wanna test out these dad jokes on you. Mhmm.

[00:01:32] - [Speaker 1]
A doctor, a lawyer, and an accountant walk into a bar, and the bartender says, what? Is this a joke? I made you laugh. We gotta laugh at you. Okay.

[00:01:46] - [Speaker 1]
This this one is

[00:01:48] - [Speaker 0]
There there are different types of laughs, aren't there? The Yeah.

[00:01:52] - [Speaker 1]
There's the pitiful, oh, good heart saver laugh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what that was.

[00:01:57] - [Speaker 1]
Alright. What about this one? I personally... I like this one. Where do bad rainbows go?

[00:02:02] - [Speaker 0]
Where?

[00:02:04] - [Speaker 1]
To Prism. It's a light sentence, but it gives them time to reflect.

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It just keeps going.

[00:02:12] - [Speaker 1]
Keeps going.

[00:02:14] - [Speaker 0]
Three punch lines for the price of one.

[00:02:16] - [Speaker 1]
I know. I know. It's it's deep. Right? You can peel back the layers.

[00:02:19] - [Speaker 1]
Mhmm. But this is the one actually that kind of gave me pause and I thought was helpful for what we're looking at today. What do you call a bear with no ears?

[00:02:30] - [Speaker 0]
What?

[00:02:31] - [Speaker 1]
A bee. And it's because the ear has gone. So when when my daughter read this out, she said, what do you call a bear with no ears? And quick as lightning, my other daughter said, will you call him a bear or whatever his name is? What difference does it make if he doesn't have ears?

[00:02:50] - [Speaker 1]
And I was just like, wow. That is pure gold because she's actually exactly right. I mean, we hear these jokes all the time. You know? There's one, what do you call a deer with no eye...

[00:03:02] - [Speaker 1]
With no eyes? And the answer is no idea. That's right. And the whole joke revolves around the fact that when someone has a difference, we're gonna label them by that difference. We're going to have a new name for them because of this difference that's there.

[00:03:15] - [Speaker 1]
Now I know this is just a joke, and, you know, you shouldn't go so heavy on a joke, but it's a reality, isn't it? That it's a concern that, if someone has a difference, what will other people do with that difference?

[00:03:30] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. We don't we don't wanna leave people feeling guilty about, I guess, those particular jokes. No. Although although, you know, there there certainly are jokes that are just mean. Yeah.

[00:03:41] - [Speaker 0]
But but it is really important, isn't it? I was reflecting on how difference doesn't mean wrong necessarily. Like, if someone doesn't have an ear that, you know, that's that's a that's a difficulty. But it doesn't mean that they're morally less or anything like that, but it can come across as there is a... So we talk about...

[00:04:06] - [Speaker 0]
I was thinking about this in the context of neurotypical and neurodivergent. Mhmm. All that's described... All those labels are describing statistics. The majority of people are like this.

[00:04:21] - [Speaker 0]
The minority of people are like this, but that's actually not a comment about what's better or worse, but I think it's taken as a better or worse.

[00:04:33] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. It can be. It can be. And that's where you really run into troubles. And that's that's where we would love to have society really change.

[00:04:42] - [Speaker 1]
And I think we do see some of these changes. But it's it's a thing that people are really concerned about. And so in the work that I do, so I spend a lot of time in research around neurodivergence, and I've also spent time interviewing families and individuals who are neurodivergent or have neurodivergent members of their families. And this research is in order to get a better understanding of how Christians experience neurodivergence or what it's like at home for them. Has been really helpful, but this is something that comes up a lot with people asking the questions around what will it mean if we do pursue a diagnosis?

[00:05:22] - [Speaker 1]
Or now that we have a diagnosis, what will it mean if we disclose this diagnosis? What will it mean for the person? What will it mean for the family? What will it mean for people around them? And, yeah, it's this fear of labelling, fear that, like for that bear, that he's not going to be known as Harry or whatever his name is, but be known as as a difference about him.

[00:05:44] - [Speaker 1]
Yes. One mum told me about this real struggle for her. I'll just read a quote from her. She said, perhaps the hardest thing was when I wanted to get a diagnosis for my daughter and my husband suggested it might not be helpful to label her. His opinion matters to me much more than anyone else and it made me doubt myself.

[00:06:05] - [Speaker 1]
So for this mother, she's kind of caught, she can see maybe some benefits of diagnosis, but her husband sees that it might not be helpful to have her labelled. And I'm told this same sort of thing by families a lot. A father recently came up to me after I'd run some training and he said that he is completely sure that his daughter is autistic, but he's really concerned that a diagnosis might come with so many cons that it outweighs any benefits. So, you know, people are concerned about will the diagnosis box the person, or will it give them excuses to stop growing in certain areas, or will there be stigma attached? And so this is what we're going to be looking at today, we're going be looking at it from different angles, and we're gonna, yeah, see where we land.

[00:06:56] - [Speaker 1]
But, Dave, wanna hear from you. Like, what what was this like for you, this this process? Were you concerned about being labeled as you were thinking through diagnosis for yourself or or for your kids?

[00:07:08] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. For for me personally, I wasn't concerned at all. I was just looking for answers, and I wanted the right answers. So I think people had tried to talk to me about things that they were finding difficult with me and just had failed to put their finger on the on the right answer. And, and that was frustrating, actually.

[00:07:36] - [Speaker 0]
It was it was frustrating to be misdiagnosed, and I really wanted right answers. And the right answers open up the right doors. And so I was really looking forward to that in seeking a diagnosis both for myself and for my kids. But while I wasn't worried about it for myself, I I did... Whether I realized it before or whether I discovered it afterwards, it did mean education, not just of myself, but actually other people.

[00:08:13] - [Speaker 0]
So education of wider family and... Who just didn't necessarily understand or didn't have a background that maybe that I did of of knowing how to how to even think about this, and education of friends and and other people as well, some of who are keen to learn and others who are not so keen. And even if you're really comfortable with having a diagnosis, they might they might not take that in the way that you would want to. And so there are... I think I think it was really helpful, but there are complexities there.

[00:08:54] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. It's those complexities, isn't it? And I think, if you're at the beginning of this journey, those complexities can seem overwhelming or insurmountable or such big concerns. And it's it's really worth taking the time, isn't it, to be thinking through this sort of thing.

[00:09:08] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. You mentioned along the way there that there were some really helpful things about that. And why don't we begin there and then we'll unpick some of these more kind of tangly bits in a bit. Because this kind of relief is something that I have heard from so many adults who've been diagnosed, but also parents as well once they've got diagnoses for their kids. So I've got a quote here from a mum that I think of sums up what a lot of people have told me.

[00:09:35] - [Speaker 1]
This mother says, for years extended family teachers and therapists would say that we must be anxious parents and making things up about the kids, because our girls are incredible at masking they would hold all their distress inside. Thankfully now we have the diagnosis and greater understanding of the girls' vulnerable nervous systems, we have more people around us that by and large either understand what we're going through or are eager to understand. So this family was seeing something that others couldn't really see and diagnosis has actually helped them to be able to explain to people what's really going on. Kind of like what you were saying, Dave, with people not quite being able to put their finger on what's happening.

[00:10:15] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it, there? Because, you know, I can think of myself... I reflect back on myself as a child and think, man, I wish I had answers and that sort of thing, and there were problems with me not having that. But actually, that's a really great example of...

[00:10:29] - [Speaker 0]
It doesn't actually just affect the child. If the parents are caring for the child and thinking about the child, and they're... They've actually been labeled or mislabeled themselves as anxious parents. And and so that diagnosis opens up things for the child, but also for the parents and the family and everyone.

[00:10:50] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Absolutely. I remember one mom telling me that the teacher literally told her that the parents must be doing something wrong if the child is distressed at home, because they're perfectly calm at school. Yeah. But this this child has quite a few challenges, and so that poor that poor family.

[00:11:10] - [Speaker 1]
We recently had Joel Moreney on our podcast, episode 18, and he's a neurodivergent man and he was speaking about this kind of relief as well that came for him when he, got, diagnosed, with ADHD and autism. And he explained to us during that episode a few reasons why it was really helpful for him. So why don't we play a little snippet from that other episode?

[00:11:37] - [Speaker 2]
So the initial response when I got the diagnosis was relief. It was going, okay, now it makes sense. I'm not weird. I'm not strange. There are lots of people whose brain works exactly like mine.

[00:11:50] - [Speaker 2]
I'm not the outlier. So therefore I can now learn how to operate and see the world through a different lens. So the diagnosis gave me a lens that I was missing.

[00:12:02] - [Speaker 1]
So I think that's really helpful to hear from Joel, some of the ways that it's benefiting him, that he can see how it's making a difference to his life as well. So I think that's really helpful. So that's episode 18. If you wanna hear a little bit more from Joel, I think that's a helpful episode as well. But, Dave, even even with this relief, even with the the good things that can come with this, there can still be concerns, of course, around diagnosis.

[00:12:30] - [Speaker 1]
Maybe the person or the family is wondering if that diagnosis will become a label, kind of as we floated at the start. And I think think that's a really understandable concern, but I think sometimes we... I think sometimes that concern comes from a place assuming that we can choose between either having a label or having no label at all. But I think in many cases, we're just living in a world where people are given a default label. I think most people are assumed to be neurotypical, and so their behaviour is actually being interpreted as, like from these neurotypical expectations, which isn't great, I don't think people should be boxed, but for some I think there's there's this misunderstanding around the around the options.

[00:13:20] - [Speaker 1]
So realising, I think, that we aren't in a world where we're kind of blank and able to be, I'm just able to be Kate. It's it's Kate who is a woman, who is Australian, who is a mother, and I'm being boxed constantly. And so if a child is being boxed as a neurotypical, then maybe they're seen as rude when they're not making eye contact or maybe they're seeming unmotivated if they're not finishing their work or perhaps they're interpreted as hyperactive because they love to move or strange because they love to share a thousand facts about one thing and kind of people around them might be approaching them assuming that they fit into this neurotypical stereotype.

[00:14:03] - [Speaker 0]
Absolutely. I I was chatting to someone recently about, children in his church, and he said... He... He'd had this real epiphany, and it was it was wonderful. He said, I used to think of the children, these particular children, as naughty and uncontrollable, and also to some degree, the families were causing problems there.

[00:14:30] - [Speaker 0]
But now I think about them as kids that need help, kids that we can support in different way. You know? So it's not that it was a choice between a label and a and a no label. It was a choice between a label and a mislabel or a diagnosis and a misdiagnosis. And that is so significant.

[00:14:52] - [Speaker 0]
And it's not it's not just about the rowdy the rowdy children. I was thinking there are also children who... Sometimes they're actually really sociable, and they can be sociable to adults, and they love talking about deep things, and yet they have no friends. And so you've labeled this child as sociable, which means you're not thinking necessarily about the the wider problems. Hang on.

[00:15:21] - [Speaker 0]
There's something here that's going on that maybe this this child who's sociable is really lonely, and that actually needs to be looked at in... Through the right lens rather than the lens of a misdiagnosis.

[00:15:39] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I think that's right. That, I mean, a big problem is when people wanna stereotype people. Like, as Christians, we wanna be approaching people as individuals and working out how to love them as individuals, not jumping to conclusions, I know how to love you because you are this, that or the other. And so, of course, there's the problem with people not listening, not getting to know people, but boxing.

[00:16:03] - [Speaker 1]
And and as parents, this is what we're concerned about, you know, what if we give our child a name that becomes a box? Will this child be seen as autistic Harry, autistic such and such, as opposed to just Harry? Will this person then be seen through this lens? And that's kind of the concern. And the the reality is sometimes yes, and that is a real challenge.

[00:16:32] - [Speaker 1]
That's not good. But what what was little Harry seen as before? Was he seen as someone who is super shy or, you know, as you're saying, like, are they being seen if they're understood to be neurotypical but not operating in a neurotypical way? Are people making conclusions about why he's not operating in a neurotypical way and attributing it to other things as opposed to understanding that actually Harry is feeling hyperactive at the moment because Harry, is facing these barriers in the kids' church room where the kids' church room is overwhelming, is too noisy, hasn't, addressed the energy that he has when he comes in. And so looking at poor little Harry and saying he has this issue as opposed to

[00:17:21] - [Speaker 0]
Yes.

[00:17:22] - [Speaker 1]
Getting to know Harry. I think I think the thing is that sometimes a diagnosis doesn't give us a new box, it kind of is more of an explanation of why the old box didn't fit well. And so I think that's something that a diagnosis can sometimes help with. Neurotypical box doesn't fit that person. Now begin asking questions about what does fit this person or this person's perspective.

[00:17:50] - [Speaker 1]
So sometimes I think it can serve to broaden the perspective of people around them, and particularly for them themselves and for the family to begin to think through what assumptions were we making before, and what things do we need to kind of recalibrate now that we have this understanding. Did you find, Dave, that, you were able to kind of, I guess, yeah, recalibrate, some things after the diagnosis?

[00:18:18] - [Speaker 0]
Very much so. And I think it's it's part of, part of being diagnosed later in life as well that actually you have to go back and recalibrate your thoughts about, for me, forty five, forty six years of experiences. So there there is that sort of past recalibration. But, sorry. There's grief that comes with that, I think, particularly for the later in life.

[00:18:51] - [Speaker 0]
But it but it does recalibrate things for going forward for me, and I and I think for lots of people in a really helpful way, because, you know, those stories, it's amazing how common these stories are. This is really weird. But parents who don't realize that their kids have broken their arm

[00:19:16] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah. I broke my collarbone when I was younger, and it... I think it's probably my fault they're telling my mom, it's okay. It hardly hurts for days. Yeah.

[00:19:25] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. That's right. And... But, like, this is actually a really common story of, you know, broken bones and and then them not being dealt with properly. And then suddenly you realize, oh, hang on.

[00:19:38] - [Speaker 0]
That was the problem. And now we can put these things in place to to head in that direction. Now I'm not necessarily saying that neurodivergence is a broken something. I'm a... You know?

[00:19:50] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Course.

[00:19:50] - [Speaker 0]
That that... That's a whole another discussion. I... And I'm not saying that. No.

[00:19:56] - [Speaker 0]
The right diagnosis means you can put the right things in place. And it also means you don't put the wrong things in place that actually sometimes will cause more harm than good, even when they come out of a really loving place. I really want to help you with this. And and I think there have been people who have really tried to love me in the past and say, I'd really like to help you with this, but they just haven't gone in the right direction. And it's been awkward and embarrassing at times because it just doesn't fit with what's what's needed to be dealt with.

[00:20:37] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I think that's right. I I remember early on, when we came to understand that our daughter is autistic, and I learnt that paints, textures and colour can be... Can, for some people, make them react. And I remember asking my daughter how she finds her classroom.

[00:20:56] - [Speaker 1]
And she told me, oh, this is one wall that makes me feel physically sick. If I accidentally glance at it, I feel physically sick. And we were quite new to this, and I just remember feeling like there was this sadness around... That's that's really hard to live in the world like that. And, whether we had the label or the diagnosis, I mean, of autism or not, she's gonna experience that.

[00:21:20] - [Speaker 1]
That didn't actually change her. But, the cool thing was I was able to, because we understood autism at this stage and we were coming to listen to autistic people, I had come to understand that this is maybe an experience that some people have and hear from adults around, oh, yeah, this is completely normal, what you need to do is look in a different way or keep in your pencil case a little card that you can look at that's a nice colour, and so because of understanding this, we were able to go, I feel really sad that this is your experience, but I feel really glad that now we can go, hey, what about this, what if you do that, and put some of those things into place. Yeah. It's interesting hearing you talk about that grief because that is something that definitely comes up a lot. But I think we've talked about relief and we've talked about grief, and I think they're not actually opposites.

[00:22:10] - [Speaker 1]
It can feel like, are you gonna be relieved or will you be sad? I think for for some things, they come together. You know, there are all sorts of things in life where you kind of feel both, and that's okay. It's complex, but this is complex, isn't it?

[00:22:25] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Actually, I was listening to a friend who had just been diagnosed and listening to her describe the feelings that she went through, and I could have taken it word for word and descri... And used it as a description for what I went through of the immediate reaction, relief, of finally answers after all these years. And then grief, oh, no. If only I'd known through all those years.

[00:22:57] - [Speaker 0]
And and actually, as I think about the diagnosis for my children as well, the feelings that I felt with my children, there was relief of like, oh, there are the answers that we can we can find a way forward now. And the grief of they have been dealing with things. Yes. Like what you talk about with your daughter with the the the wall color. They have been dealing with that regardless of whether I've known it or not.

[00:23:27] - [Speaker 0]
And I wish I'd known, but then coming back to the relief of, well, now I know. And now we know, and now we can find a way forward.

[00:23:37] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. That's right. Oh, that parent guilt. But God knew, and God could have God could have made it that we knew sooner, and that wasn't God's plan. And and, yeah, I'm really glad through all of this.

[00:23:51] - [Speaker 1]
We're Christians. Isn't it lovely? I mean, anything you come across in life, it just helps so much, doesn't it, to know that God has all this. He's actually in control of every single aspect of this helps, I think, with the relief and the grief and the guilt and everything else.

[00:24:06] - [Speaker 0]
And and I think it's it's worth trying to separate grief and guilt as well. Yeah. Because I think grief is a good thing. It can be a good thing. Whereas guilt is something, hey, we...

[00:24:23] - [Speaker 0]
We've got a Lord and savior who can deal with our guilt, and we can we can get rid of that while acknowledging grief. And so, you know, I'm thinking about something that had to something that changed for me, after my diagnosis. So, I went to a conference a a few months ago, and there were... There was stuff in the morning, and there was stuff in the evening, and there was a break in between. And in that break, you can do whatever you want.

[00:24:54] - [Speaker 0]
So I think in the past, I would feel... I would... I'd feel like I've been around people all morning, but it... I'm here at a conference, so I've gotta be around people at in in the afternoon and talk about Jesus with them and have all these deeper meaningful conversations. But I really wanna pull back, and I'd get caught in this sort of in between thing.

[00:25:16] - [Speaker 0]
And I'd feel really guilty about that, I think. Like, why can't I just engage better with people? Whereas when I went on this conference recently, I could say to myself, you know what? I actually need some time away. I need to just go and sit in my room and watch an episode of whatever I was binging at the time, because that's just actually gonna give me better energy for that night.

[00:25:42] - [Speaker 0]
And with that, I think, one, there was the relief of, yes, I can handle this better. There was the the grief of, oh, I used to feel so bad about this even though I was having to cope with it without knowing how to do it. Mhmm. But, actually, it could take away the guilt. The...

[00:26:05] - [Speaker 0]
Because I could say, you know what? I wasn't doing the wrong thing by not engaging with people back then. It wasn't sinful in some way. And, it was it was it was just something that needed to happen, and now I can go forward without guilt, even though I can grieve what I didn't know about myself back then.

[00:26:28] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, that is so helpful. I love how you've separated those out and shown kind of that intermingling of all of those feelings, but how they play into each other as well. And I think, like, you've touched on something there that is is really, really common that I hear from families and people just all the time that there's this concern that with a diagnosis, it'll come with kind of a lowering of the bar. People say if I tell my child that they are this or that they're that, they're gonna stop trying. Mhmm.

[00:27:01] - [Speaker 1]
They're no longer going to think that they need to do that because they'll say, well, I'm neurodivergent. I can't. And that comes from a real place of love, doesn't it, that concern? But hearing you speak there, Dave, like you're saying that you wanna be able to access this conference, the reality is that God's given you a body, brain that means that that's going to be a challenge, and you understanding yourself means that you actually can access this conference. You can be there and really be there because you understand that you're someone who needs a rest in the middle.

[00:27:32] - [Speaker 1]
Like it's actually... We haven't lowered the bar there, we've actually meant that you've put systems in place that means that you can access that. And I think often people who look back at their lives before diagnosis, a thing that I hear quite often from people is they would push, collapse, push, collapse. They'd go to a conference, they'd be there at absolutely everything, but then they'd collapse for two months and then feel depressed and sad and low self worth and struggling to get out of bed because they've pushed themselves so hard, but not understanding that actually this kind of... This balance that can be put in place, these systems that can be put in place as well along the way can actually mean that things that were too hard actually can now become doable for someone.

[00:28:17] - [Speaker 1]
And I know I see that in my kids, like things that just wrecked them. Now we understand. You add into the mix earplugs, earphones, maybe sunglasses, understanding we need to rest before or after something, working out how to have a little quiet rest during something can actually mean that something that used to be a real challenge can now be enjoyable, they can thrive in that situation. Again, there's this grief as well where, like, for you, you've said that you're gonna miss that little section of of the conference in order to be able to do it, and there is that grief that can come with looking at people around or or, like, for us looking at families around and saying that family can do a thing every single weekend and not collapse, and our family needs to take a rest. There's a grief there, but I think over time, you you get in the swing of that's the way that your family rolls, and there's a happiness that comes with that flow, with that routine, with that system that means that we can all thrive.

[00:29:14] - [Speaker 1]
Even though we're not doing the same as others, we are modelling and teaching to our kids that that, you know, rest is good, engagement is good, serving God is good, you know, operating in ways that we can without feeling like we need to be superhuman.

[00:29:31] - [Speaker 0]
Absolutely. And one of the one of the joys of being a parent or one of the hopes of being a parent is that you you do watch your child grow and become more independent and and and learn things. I'm I'm at a stage now where my kids are starting to move out of home, and I'm watching them sort of take on things and make mistakes and all that sort of stuff. Mhmm. But one of the great joys has been seeing them ask questions about themselves and think, oh, no.

[00:30:12] - [Speaker 0]
If I do it this way, it's not gonna work. But if I do it that way, it will work, and I'm gonna take that way. And they can do that because they've been forced to ask those questions of, you know, I've been through these hard things. That didn't work, but I'd actually do wanna get better. And so if, when our kids are younger, if we can help them to ask those questions through diagnosis or whatever it is, then, God willing, that will actually enable them to move toward that adulting where they've internalized that and can do that themselves.

[00:30:59] - [Speaker 1]
How wonderful. Yeah. And all kids need to work this out, didn't they? Absolutely.

[00:31:04] - [Speaker 0]
And it's true for everyone in Yeah. In every area of life. So whether it's, I don't know, driving a car or making a meal or, you know, something like that. But it's true also in neurodivergence.

[00:31:18] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. That's wonderful. Yeah. I I think that's right. We need to...

[00:31:22] - [Speaker 1]
Everyone needs to be learning about themselves and, and figuring all of that stuff out. And, part of figuring out who we are, often questions of identity come into the mix as well, and, which I guess brings me to the next kind of concern that often, people will raise with me, the concern that a diagnosis will become an identity for someone, they will see themselves first and foremost as the diagnosis. And I think, in some ways, any identity can be at risk of becoming the first and foremost identity for someone. I know when I became a mother, you know, you've got this child who just needs so much from you and motherhood, can be, you know, something that can be all encompassing and engrossing and so on, but I'm also a wife, and I'm also a sister, I'm also a daughter, I'm also a friend, but first and foremost, I'm a child of God. And this is this is something that's really important.

[00:32:25] - [Speaker 1]
And I think actually with diagnosis, it can give parents a really helpful opportunity or for a person a really good opportunity to kind of remind ourselves, remind people in our family that our identity is found in Christ.

[00:32:41] - [Speaker 0]
Absolutely. We've got that wonderful passage in Ephesians chapter one, which is just, you know, I've I've got my wife's old bible, and back when she... In her early days of being a Christian, she was getting into highlighting key bits of the bible. And she's actually highlighted and underlined every sentence in Ephesians one, I think, and it's You

[00:33:03] - [Speaker 1]
could do it for all of Ephesians there. I always

[00:33:06] - [Speaker 0]
stop. The whole bible. But but it is funny to open up and say that because it's so it's so densely and richly packed with actually everything that God has done for us from before the beginning of time all the way through the cross and right up until where he's taking us. And, you know, if you haven't looked at it for a while, go back and, have a read of that. But one of the things that strikes me there is that everything that's greatest about me, everything that's most important about me has actually completely come from outside of me.

[00:33:50] - [Speaker 0]
It's been given to me by God through Jesus. And so... And and and this is something we need to teach ourselves and everyone regardless of whether they're neurotypical or neurodivergent, that actually where do I look for joy? It's not in my abilities, which can fail even when they've been really good. It's it's what God has done for me.

[00:34:19] - [Speaker 0]
And that's both humbling and relieving. It's humbling because it says, even when I am great at something, actually, that's not the most important thing about me. Yes. So... Yeah.

[00:34:31] - [Speaker 0]
But it's also relieving because when those things do fail, and they do because, you know, this is a broken world, I can say, but that's okay. That's that's completely fine because it hasn't changed the fact that I'm in Christ. And so when it comes to thinking about neurodivergent teaching our kids, this is not something where we just say, well, they might have a label, but that doesn't matter because, you know, we're in Christ. Actually, this, just like all things with the Bible, is something we have to teach our kids and ourselves and keep coming back and saying, okay. I've discovered this new thing about myself or my child.

[00:35:17] - [Speaker 0]
What do I need to reflect on with the gospel? I need to reflect on my identity using Christ, and that's gonna free me up to say, okay. I've got this new thing. I've gotta learn about it, but it hasn't actually changed what's greatest. Mhmm.

[00:35:35] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. That's exactly right. And and as we're looking into all of this, that's right, a a diagnosis is a little piece of the of the puzzle perhaps, or whether it's a diagnosis or just growing an understanding about a person, it's a piece of the puzzle, sure, but our first and foremost location for identity is there in Christ. And as parents, what we want for our kids is not for them to be someone who can blend in with the crowd, it's actually for someone who's going to look like Jesus. They can do that as a neurotypical, as a neurodivergent person, they can do that in whatever situation God has put them in because that's just a gift from God, isn't it?

[00:36:19] - [Speaker 1]
That we can be growing to be more and more like Christ, thanks to the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And I I just think that's a great thing to be remembering as we look into this. It's it's not the be all and end all.

[00:36:32] - [Speaker 0]
Absolutely. And while we're gonna have to teach our kids about how to navigate what their neurodivergence means for their life, it doesn't change the fact that, actually, most significantly, they're gonna have to think through what does godliness look like and what sin do I need to run away from? So I think I've heard you talk about greed before... Not your own greed, but how we I did. We can be greedy regardless of whether we're neurotypical or neurodivergent.

[00:37:08] - [Speaker 0]
Now, might come out in different ways, depending on how our brain's wired, but we all need to think about how am I running away from greed. And so that again comes back to, well, I wanna be like Christ. That's my most important thing. What are the challenges I'm gonna face in doing that? What are the good things that I need to keep running towards in that?

[00:37:32] - [Speaker 1]
Absolutely.

[00:37:33] - [Speaker 0]
Just as we're coming to an end, I do wanna give one last piece of advice for adults who are thinking about maybe whether this is an answer for them. And that that can be a scary thing, but I wanna really encourage you that actually there... There's great joy and benefit and relief that can come from a diagnosis. With all the caveats that we've talked about of labeling and all those sort of things, I don't think generally people regret getting a diagnosis. Have you heard of that, Kate?

[00:38:16] - [Speaker 1]
Actually, every single person I've interviewed has said that they don't regret it. But most people have talked about this grief and someone that you've talked about, Dave. But, yeah, no one has said that they regret it to me. That doesn't mean that that's never happened, but that's just, yeah, the the sample that I've got.

[00:38:36] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. That's right. And so as scary as it can be, there are so many parents who are looking at their children, seeking a diagnosis, and then going, oh, hang on a second. And that's exactly what it was for me. And so I'd encourage you to, I guess, open that just a little bit more and, ask the questions even when that can be a little bit terrifying.

[00:39:05] - [Speaker 1]
That's really helpful. And, that's something that Joel Maroney talked about too back in episode 18, which we've already referenced, so go back and have a listen there. To continue thinking through this topic, I have an article online on diagnosis, so you can head to my, online resources at anextraordinarynormal.substack.com. I'll put that link into the show notes and I'll also put in the show notes references. So throughout this, everything that we have, broadly spoken about is, you know, based on research, of course, and as always, they'll be there in the show notes.

[00:39:41] - [Speaker 0]
Fantastic. Thank you very much. Well, that's kicked off our season three. Very exciting. If you are...

[00:39:48] - [Speaker 0]
If you do enjoy the show, really wanna encourage people to write a review on your listening app because that means the app will recommend it more to other people. So that's a real help for us. Pause the episode now. Go write the review. Well, actually, the episodes are there.

[00:40:06] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. But we'll we'll talk again next week where we're gonna be looking at people's questions. And so it's gonna be fun to be answering some questions that came up in our webinar and maybe a few others that have been sent to us. But for now, we'll see you later.

[00:40:21] - [Speaker 1]
See you later.

[00:40:28] - [Speaker 0]
Alright.

[00:40:29] - [Speaker 1]
Ready. Ready. Sorry. Just stifling a giggle. Just Yeah.

[00:40:33] - [Speaker 1]
No. I just... I was just thinking how funny it would be if, like, we just... I'm Dave Whittingham, and you say, I'm Kate Morris, and we don't address it.

[00:40:41] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just just move on. Yeah. Just...

[00:40:44] - [Speaker 1]
It's alright. Just see who notices. Get some comments. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:47] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:49] - [Speaker 0]
Spotify. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.