Special Interests - 20

[00:00:02] - [Speaker 0]
Hi, everyone. Dave here. Before we get into our topic today, this is our final episode of season two, and we're hoping to raise enough money to help us get a season three off the ground. Please consider donating to help us. Head to faithfulgod.net to go to our donate page, or click the link in our show notes.

[00:00:21] - [Speaker 0]
Please hit pause on the episode and help us right now.

[00:00:25] - [Speaker 1]
We've already covered so much in the first two seasons. We've looked at energy and sensory differences, and we've looked so many times at church. We've had a look at sensory survival kits, transitions, limitations, marriages, and so much more. You have told us that these are topics you wanna hear about more from a Christian perspective, and we have so many more areas that we're really keen to explore. But we do need your partnership to keep going, So thank you so much for getting on board and donating at faithfulgod.net.

[00:01:17] - [Speaker 1]
Hi. I'm Kate Morris.

[00:01:19] - [Speaker 0]
And I'm Dave Whittingham.

[00:01:21] - [Speaker 1]
It's a fun episode today. We're going to be diving into areas of particular passion, often called special interests. Hi, Dave.

[00:01:33] - [Speaker 0]
Good day, Kate. How are you today?

[00:01:34] - [Speaker 1]
I'm good. And I'm really keen to be looking at special interests together. Dave, you're a neurodivergent man. And so, I wonder, do you have special interests?

[00:01:48] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. I think I've got a couple of special interests. So I really love history. So I like deep diving on big world changing history and thinking about what's affected one thing and another. So do that from a few different periods.

[00:02:06] - [Speaker 0]
But, yeah, I really enjoy talking about that and thinking about that. And I think, you know, I don't want don't want to sound holier than thou, but I think talking about Jesus has sort of become a special interest that, in a in a particular way. So I love doing it. I love taking every opportunity I can get to do it, and it just it becomes a enjoyable focus for me.

[00:02:32] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, that's great. I'm I'm glad to hear that you're interested in that as a Christian. But I guess also, like, seeing as you run three podcasts, you'd wanna hope that it's not just you pouring out. So do you kind of feel

[00:02:45] - [Speaker 2]
I've just

[00:02:45] - [Speaker 0]
I've just started a fourth. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Called bible in your brain, but you have to sign up to the club membership for the kids podcast to get it.

[00:02:56] - [Speaker 0]
But it's a it's a memory verse podcast. So yeah. And I and I've got a fifth one that I'm thinking about that, that my wife suggested, which I'm looking forward to exploring in a few weeks. So, you know, just to keep me busy.

[00:03:09] - [Speaker 2]
Just to keep me busy.

[00:03:10] - [Speaker 1]
I love that. Well, I I'm really glad to hear that it's something that you're passionate about and that you're I mean, it's obviously taking a lot of work, but I assume it's feeding you back a little bit as well if you're really enjoying digging into that topic too.

[00:03:25] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:03:26] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. So a lot of neurodivergent people have special interests, have areas of deep interest. It might be one or two areas. It could be a few areas. And so that's what we're referring to when we're talking about special interests.

[00:03:41] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. It's it's more than a hobby, isn't it, Kate? So it's it's not just something that you like to do occasionally to to be refreshed. Is that right?

[00:03:50] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. That's right. And that's a really helpful distinction. Hobbies and special interests are quite different. So special interests can be specific, like like car engines or butterflies, or they can be really broad, things like dinosaurs or fashion or or history, like what you have, Dave.

[00:04:08] - [Speaker 1]
They can be subjects that other for for kids or other kids their age might have, or they could be things that are really quite different to other kids. So I have some sound bites from some neurodivergent kids that I'm gonna be popping into the episode today. Dave, you hadn't haven't heard these yet, but they're adorable.

[00:04:26] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, fantastic.

[00:04:28] - [Speaker 1]
I think kids don't mind being called adorable. But I love hearing from them about their special interests and what their interests mean to them. And so just to be clear, these aren't my kids. They're not your kids either, Dave.

[00:04:41] - [Speaker 0]
No.

[00:04:41] - [Speaker 1]
And so a huge thankful thank you to to these families for this. So here's one child who wants to tell us about his special interests.

[00:04:51] - [Speaker 3]
Like tigers and lions and wasps.

[00:05:00] - [Speaker 1]
So he says tigers and lions and wasps. So the special interests can be anything. But the thing that makes it a special interest and not a hobby is the intensity of interest and the depth and also its function, which we're going to be getting to. So a person can become deeply engrossed in their special interest and wanting to return to it whenever they can. Yeah.

[00:05:26] - [Speaker 1]
So it's not like a hobby that can be put down. It's actually something they wanna be holding onto often. And often, the person will find in this special interest a profound sense of comfort that they often can't find elsewhere, a sense of calm. So here's another sound bite from a young girl talking about her bearded dragon.

[00:05:50] - [Speaker 4]
My bearded dragon, Bongo, makes me feel like my soul is complete, and it makes me feel like he's clinging onto my heart with love.

[00:06:07] - [Speaker 1]
That's that's quite a lot of love this girl has for her bearded dragon.

[00:06:11] - [Speaker 0]
That's a lot of love.

[00:06:13] - [Speaker 1]
It's and that's not the same love that everyone will feel with their special interest. Do you draw comfort, Dave, or or come from the interests that you have?

[00:06:23] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. I think in a couple of different ways, probably. So so for the history one, I think the the world can be complicated to navigate, and daily relationships can be complicated to navigate. But history can be studied and explored with a lot more freedom. It doesn't have the social intensity that regular relationships have.

[00:06:53] - [Speaker 0]
And so it's just easier to to rest in that and explore and understand it. Even if some even if people disagree or I disagree with their take on history, it's it's just a take, and it's easy to to navigate through that more than day to day life. And so there's an escapism maybe in

[00:07:14] - [Speaker 1]
that. With

[00:07:16] - [Speaker 0]
Jesus, I think for for me, it's just the the clarity of the truth of the gospel is just it just rings so brilliantly for me. You know you know, so many things aren't clear in in my daily life, and I get confused a lot. So that that clarity is great. I've had I've had to grow in my understanding of wisdom around that and what is black and white and what is not and where the nuances are. So that's that's been helpful to think through, But still, there are things that are so clear and even just the goodness of the gospel for life.

[00:08:01] - [Speaker 0]
I don't I don't always know how to navigate life, but I know that, that Christ is always gonna take me in the best direction and hold on to me. And and and so, yeah, that that brings great comfort.

[00:08:23] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. That's that's lovely to hear, Dave, that experience for you of finding a place in your special interests that's separate to what the world feels like to you, and that you've got this experience in the world but you can pause from that as you dive into these special interests. I'm just thinking for me, so I don't have special interests, I'm not, a neurodivergent person and I think this is one thing that I look at for my kids and I see that they have this way, like what you were saying, this deep enjoyment, this way of escape. And I look at my life and I don't have something like that. And not that I think I'm missing out, it's just one of those moments of difference.

[00:09:02] - [Speaker 1]
I love sewing, I enjoy sewing. If I sew for too many hours, I get so over it and I don't wanna touch it again for a while. It's fine for me if I don't touch it for six months, it's not particularly on my mind. I do really enjoy it when I'm doing it, but it's this difference in needing it and finding this kind of shortcut to come that that you've talked about that I see in other people as well that I just think is for those who have special interests, I think it can function as this lovely gift, which I think brings us to something worth thinking about, which is misunderstandings around special interests and neurodivergent people have experienced so much misunderstanding throughout history. And this is one of those areas where specialists, teachers, parents, even themselves have looked at these interests and said, it's too much, it's too narrow, it's too focused, it takes them too much out of this world.

[00:09:58] - [Speaker 1]
And so they think of special interests in terms of excess instead of in terms of what these special interests provide for that person. And so special interests aren't actually a problem to solve. They often provide that sort of meaningful those meaningful moments in life like what you described, Dave. And like what we heard from that girl, that instant calm, that that warm hug. How wonderful.

[00:10:24] - [Speaker 1]
This isn't this isn't looking at it in terms of excess isn't at all the right way to approach it.

[00:10:30] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. And it can it can say a lot about relationships and the way people are reading each other or maybe misreading each other, can't it? Because sometimes special interests are just very, very particular. So I can talk about history with a lot of middle aged men because middle aged men are into history.

[00:10:49] - [Speaker 1]
But Just broadly read.

[00:10:51] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Yeah. It it like like, it's a not uncommon thing. One of the biggest podcasts in the world is one of my favorites. The rest is history.

[00:10:57] - [Speaker 0]
So, you know, it's not it's not weird in a sense for me to say I like history

[00:11:03] - [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.

[00:11:04] - [Speaker 0]
Even if I look at it in a particular way or it does a particular thing for me. But, you know, if if if a grown man came and said to you their special interest is bearded dragons or, you know, the Ming dynasty or something like that, because that's not a common experience for people, that can lead to you know, that's that's too much of a focus. Or they can import the wrong meaning into that and say, yes. You can think about that for a little bit, but it shouldn't be too too much. Do do you think

[00:11:39] - [Speaker 1]
I think that's right. I think, it's it's when people are comparing to what others are doing and saying that's not what everyone does. Yeah. And that's how we conclude whether it's useful or not as opposed to asking questions. And so to return to this girl with the bearded dragon, she also gets this sense of calm.

[00:11:55] - [Speaker 1]
Like, it really is beneficial to her, and this is what she says.

[00:11:59] - [Speaker 4]
When I feel sad, I get hungered up, and he almost instantly makes me feel calm and better.

[00:12:11] - [Speaker 0]
Her words there actually remind me of a topic we looked at right back at the beginning. I think it was episode two where we talked about spoon theory. And in spoon theory, we talked about how everyone has a certain amount of spoons in the draw of energy. It's a way of thinking about energy, and some things will take out spoons and some things will put them back. And for neurodivergent people, just just that general coping with the world can be can take spoons away, but whatever's happening in a particular day can sap that energy, can take those spoons away.

[00:12:49] - [Speaker 0]
But that description there for her picking up Bongo and holding Bongo can just put spoons right back in the drawer and be rejuvenating and helping her to to keep going and keep moving forward for the day.

[00:13:04] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. How wonderful. Yeah. That's a helpful way to put it with the spoons because this these special interests often will offer that that calm, that regulation, that sustained rejuvenation time, that joy, that comfort, that structure.

[00:13:20] - [Speaker 1]
And Dave, you've talked about that escape as well. And we'll put citations in the show notes. We're not just saying this. It's it's really important that we understand this deep benefit that often special interests can bring to to some neurodivergent people. I think they're wonderful.

[00:13:55] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. There's there's another common misunderstanding as well actually when we think about special interests, and it's about the value of special interests. So they're often framed as useful if they're beneficial to society. And it's it's actually a really harmfully narrow way to understand special interests. We know that it's true that we have historical figures who were probably neurodivergent.

[00:14:21] - [Speaker 1]
We might see little hints that they were neurodivergent who devoted themselves to areas of special interest for them. For some of these, we're still benefiting today. I guess I think of people like, you know, Beethoven who devoted himself to music, or we've got, Galileo with his really deep focus and study of, you know, science. And then we've got Herschel, you know, the telescope guy who dedicated himself to to his study and his work.

[00:14:49] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Totally know Herschel, the telescope guy. We chat every day.

[00:14:53] - [Speaker 2]
I hope not. He's dead.

[00:14:54] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah. Well, I was thinking of a different Herschel, other

[00:14:58] - [Speaker 2]
Unless there's another well, see the okay.

[00:15:00] - [Speaker 1]
There was recently a telescope named after him, so maybe that's

[00:15:04] - [Speaker 0]
Okay.

[00:15:05] - [Speaker 1]
But usefulness isn't the measure of value.

[00:15:10] - [Speaker 0]
No. There you're talking about usefulness to other people, but it's actually inherently useful and valuable to the person in their deep dive, isn't it? So, again, going back to that girl talking about that value of the regulation for her, it it calms her. It it it takes her focus off the thing that's been making her really sad. So there there's a there's a value right there, but that doesn't mean that the world is going to be is gonna be wowed by Bongo even though she's wowed by Bongo.

[00:15:47] - [Speaker 0]
But that's fine.

[00:15:48] - [Speaker 1]
It Yeah.

[00:15:50] - [Speaker 0]
It has already done something valuable in and of itself. So so, you know, me talking about my special interests of talking about Jesus and history. The talking about Jesus, obviously, I I can turn that into podcasts, and hopefully, that's a great benefit to people. The the history one, you know, I'd I'd do nothing for that, but it with that for other people generally, but it still helps me and is of great benefit to me.

[00:16:19] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. That's right, isn't it? And that's that's really important for us to understand. I think this misunderstanding around special interest actually reflects, a broader attitude around neurodivergence. So sometimes people will say that neurodivergent people have superpowers.

[00:16:35] - [Speaker 1]
And, I mean, I know I've heard people I've heard neurodivergent people say this and for them it can ring absolutely true and they can see their abilities and that's absolutely wonderful. But for others that doesn't feel true to them. And so when we make sweeping statements about how all neurodivergent people have superpowers, that can leave people feeling like they're missing out or like they're lesser or comparing themselves then to other people's outputs and wondering how their outputs should be superpowers and they're not superpowers. And so speaking of special interests like this or outputs like this or, you know, speaking about superpowers like that can sometimes communicate that a person's worth is tied to what they're producing, what they're making for society, what they're doing for society or for others. But I mean, none of us should have to have output that earns us value in this world.

[00:17:31] - [Speaker 1]
And I think Christians in particular know this, don't we? We we know that we're not valuable because of what we do. We know that we're valuable because God values us.

[00:17:42] - [Speaker 0]
Absolutely. Because, you know, right from the beginning, every human is made in the image of God. And, you know, that's why Christians have fought against slavery. It's why they've fought against all sorts of other things because the value is the fact that you are human. You are more than an animal.

[00:18:01] - [Speaker 0]
You have value in that. It's not about output at all. And, also, as Christians, we are valuable because we are in Christ. Our value comes from him. It's drawn from God.

[00:18:15] - [Speaker 0]
And so to value someone because of their output is is such a wrong picture to to talk about. I I think people make the same mistakes with other things as well, you know, with with, people who are young or people who are old. So, you know, this debate now about, about the elderly and have they lost their value. As Christians, we wanna say, absolutely not. They are still in the image of God.

[00:18:47] - [Speaker 0]
They are still valuable as human beings. And so we can't treat them as less valuable because somehow their economic output has decreased. And it's the same for for neurodivergent people that we cannot tie value to output.

[00:19:08] - [Speaker 1]
I think that's right. Yeah. I think too, as as Christians, we're not looking to find a strength that we have to to buy us worth or to buy us meaning in this life as well. I think about two Corinthians 12 where God speaks to Paul. Paul says, but he, God, said to me, my grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness.

[00:19:40] - [Speaker 1]
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weakness so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. We're not looking for something that's going to be a superpower. We're not searching in this world for our children either to have something that's going to give them value or something they can put their hope in. We don't mind whether our children have strengths or no strengths. We want our children and we want ourselves to be looking to Christ for his power and his strength because we know God's grace is sufficient for us, and his power is made perfect in weakness.

[00:20:17] - [Speaker 0]
It's so much the opposite of the message that we get from the world, isn't it?

[00:20:22] - [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.

[00:20:24] - [Speaker 0]
But sometimes God will actually deliberately make us weaker in order to display his strength even more. That's what's happening for Paul in that passage. He was deliberately made weaker, and he's like, great. God gets to be seen more in me. And so to value our strength as the highest attainable thing is just that's the wrong way to look about look at it.

[00:20:51] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I I think that's exactly right. And so as we're thinking about special interests in our children, we might notice that there's a balance that needs to be looked at. So we want our children to be living in a way that supports their overall well-being. And of course, that balance isn't found in looking at other kids and seeing how much time do other kids spend in special interests and what are other kids doing.

[00:21:16] - [Speaker 1]
But the question does maybe need to come up, what does balance look like for this child? Not what does it look like for other kids, what does it look like for this child to be healthy? Because sometimes engagement in a special interest can actually become more consuming for some people. And so, yeah, I mentioned before three historical figures. They're really interesting because we've got Beethoven who would spend so long practising and composing that he just neglected self care.

[00:21:44] - [Speaker 1]
Or we've got Galileo who, you know, dedicated himself to his studies, but it was to the neglect of all other duties and neglect to his family and people around him, all in pursuit of that work. Or to come back to Herschel, he studied so hard that his sister actually had to put aside the studies she was wanting to do in order to be spoon feeding him because she realised that he would rather starve to death than pause on his studies. So there might be a time for some kids when some recalibration, some adjustments, some rebalancing needs to happen.

[00:22:17] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Thankfully, undereating has never been a problem for me. But be because of the value of the deep dive and the, I guess, the pressure release of it, sometimes we do need reminders to resurface and reengage with the world that that free and easy escape is has a purpose, and it's helpful in that purpose, but it's not the be all and end all. There is a world to keep living in and exploring and being a part of. That's important too.

[00:22:51] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. It is. And that's a hard thing to to rebalance, but sometimes schedules are helpful, being able to map out what things need to happen in the day, what meals need to happen, self care need to happen. There might be other things for this person like school or time outside of the house that need to happen.

[00:23:08] - [Speaker 1]
And so working out how to interweave some things in there that involve the special interest, but also working out how to make sure that you're blocking in really large, long chunks of time for that person to be able to deeply dive back in. It can't be lots of snippets of time or they won't get that depth, but blocking in time to be able to say, we will pause now, but look, there is time mapped out for you for later where you'll be able to deeply dive in there, and you've got this long stretch of time.

[00:23:40] - [Speaker 0]
We've said that the deep dive doesn't actually have to be useful to other people, but actually, it can be a it can be a tool, can't it, for helping to engage beyond yourself Mhmm. Beyond the child self. And so sometimes those special interests can work to create communities for people who might struggle in other communities.

[00:24:08] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Absolutely. And what a lovely thing that is. And so special interests actually can end up being a way for other people to connect with them, for them to connect to other people, have these conversations and share that that joy, share that interest, for them to share their knowledge as well. And and so we have a sound bite here from another girl sharing couple of her special interests, and you'll hear her enthusiasm as she speaks about these.

[00:24:36] - [Speaker 3]
I'm really interested in turtles and Minecraft. When I'm learning about turtles, I feel happy because I'm learning more about my favorite animal. And I also feel sad because I know that they are sort of endangered of going extinct. And when I'm playing Minecraft or thinking about Minecraft, I feel happy and like I want to keep doing more and more and more and more and more because there are so many things you can do in Minecraft. It makes me feel like happy and like I am super interested.

[00:25:23] - [Speaker 1]
So we had maybe some lightsabers in the background there.

[00:25:27] - [Speaker 2]
Think Dave may be someone else's special interest going on in the background.

[00:25:30] - [Speaker 1]
But you can you can hear her enthusiasm there. Right? The the what a blessing for the family to learn alongside her about these things.

[00:25:38] - [Speaker 0]
Absolutely. And I think that provides such a fantastic opportunity for engagement. If you think about the church environment, often in church, I find the neurodivergent kids easiest to talk to. It's just a matter of finding that what that special thing is, and they'll talk for hours.

[00:25:58] - [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.

[00:25:58] - [Speaker 0]
But the fact that you can take an interest in what interests them says to them, you are important. You are valuable, especially when during the week, often they can struggle things like school where they feel like they're always in trouble or things aren't for them or people don't understand them. Being able to to engage at a level of something that they absolutely love is so beneficial and welcomes them into the community on their terms.

[00:26:31] - [Speaker 1]
What a great way to have that connection. And yeah. That's right. For parents, let's be telling people around us as well, hey. They don't wanna be asked about school.

[00:26:40] - [Speaker 1]
But if you ask them about knitting, they'll be so excited. Or for this girl, if you come along with, a picture of a turtle, she's gonna have so many facts that she can share with you. And so also taking that to kids church leaders or Sunday school leaders, being able to say to them, hey, here's a hint. This might really help them engage. This might really help you have this beautiful connection with them.

[00:27:01] - [Speaker 1]
And so isn't that lovely to have this opportunity to potentially connect over these things, even if we're just sharing pictures, if it's someone who's not a verbal communicator, what a lovely opportunity this is.

[00:27:14] - [Speaker 0]
Absolutely. It's so beautiful. We we might wrap up there, not just this episode, but this season. This is season two, and it's been really good. I've really enjoyed this.

[00:27:26] - [Speaker 0]
It's been lovely having different guests on during the season. We had our first q and a session as well, looking at a different a few different questions and a lot lots of other topics as well. Please don't forget, we've got our webinar coming up. Now's the time to sign up. We're gonna be thinking about how churches can be made into helpful and loving and welcoming environments for neurodivergent people.

[00:27:54] - [Speaker 0]
So this is for you, but it is also for people in your church. So please gather people and say, either come over to my house or get your church to say, hey. Can we watch this together as a church? Because we want this to be a wide experience for people to think about.

[00:28:12] - [Speaker 1]
And if you're able to help support us as we're getting season three off the ground, we have some great ideas for season three, Please do that. Please head to our website. You'll be able to find the link there. It's faithfulgod.net and follow the link through to the GoFundMe page where you can donate. Please do help us get season three off the ground because we'd love to see that happen.

[00:28:35] - [Speaker 1]
And until season three begins, I'll see you later.

[00:28:39] - [Speaker 0]
See you later.

[00:28:43] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. Why don't we do that? That I think that's right. And in the end, if people think we're about waffle on, maybe they're right.

[00:28:51] - [Speaker 1]
Dave, you're a neurodivergent man. And so I wonder, do you have special interests? No. Not? Nothing.

[00:29:02] - [Speaker 1]
I hate this topic.

[00:29:04] - [Speaker 0]
I'm so glad she clarified who Bongo was because in your notes, it was just

[00:29:08] - [Speaker 1]
It was just Bongo.

[00:29:09] - [Speaker 0]
My special interest is Bongo. He feels like a warm hug, and I was just trying to work out what Bongo could possibly be.

[00:29:15] - [Speaker 2]
Never work it out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny.

[00:29:17] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[00:29:18] - [Speaker 0]
I think episode two of Neurodivergent Family and Faith that I've all caught up in my words.

[00:29:23] - [Speaker 2]
Get the title right, Dave. Episode 20.

[00:29:27] - [Speaker 0]
You're picking on me because I'm neurodivergent. No. And

[00:29:34] - [Speaker 1]
that's the last episode.

[00:29:36] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Wow. Just like that.

[00:29:40] - [Speaker 0]
No. Sorry.

[00:29:43] - [Speaker 1]
Lucky we're not recording.